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	<title>Comments on: Finley vs. Veblen</title>
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	<link>http://werkhorse.com/pedigreematters/index.php/2010/07/13/finley-vs-veblen/</link>
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		<title>By: Roger Lyons</title>
		<link>http://werkhorse.com/pedigreematters/index.php/2010/07/13/finley-vs-veblen/comment-page-1/#comment-42</link>
		<dc:creator>Roger Lyons</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Jul 2010 20:49:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://werkhorse.com/pedigreematters/?p=303#comment-42</guid>
		<description>Tinky, I thank you on behalf of our readers for taking the trouble to go as far as you have here. Perhaps, instead of saying &quot;as a practical matter,&quot; I should have said &quot;as a formal matter&quot; when referring to the distinction between breeding, as a productive process, and racing as packaging, merchandising, and salesmanship. I&#039;m not sure. Anyway, I drew the distinction because it seemed the appropriate way to apply Veblen&#039;s analysis. Nevertheless, if it&#039;s fair to say that racing has too much effect on the goods that are produced by the breeding industry, then it&#039;s at least eqully fair to say that the breeding industry has too much to do with business, as you point out with respect to the effects of the direct commercial market.

As long as we&#039;re going back to the time when aristocrats raced for &quot;the sheer pleasure of seeing their runners perform,&quot; let&#039;s go back further to the time when breeding and racing were wrapped inseparably in a folk tradition sustained by yoeman farmers. I&#039;d argue that the aristocratic period, from the late18th- through the 19th century, was a stage in the industrial organization of breeding and racing and that its main thrust was to appropriate that all but forgotten folk tradition to the business-industrial model. We call it an &quot;aristocratic tradition,&quot; but it couldn&#039;t reproduce itself. It could only evolve with the broader economic environment. That process drove asunder the businesses of breeding and racing, resulting in, as you aptly put it, &quot;the deeply insidious, fractured nature of the U.S. racing and breeding industries.&quot; But that was Veblen&#039;s point exactly. 

I&#039;d add that in the background of this post were my thoughts about a post Sid Fernando wrote at his website on the Suburban H., which was run at 9 furlongs this year instead of 10 furlongs. No doubt, immediate pressures conspired to make this happen, and no doubt there is blame enough to be divided between both sides of the industrial-business model for its long-term effects.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tinky, I thank you on behalf of our readers for taking the trouble to go as far as you have here. Perhaps, instead of saying &#8220;as a practical matter,&#8221; I should have said &#8220;as a formal matter&#8221; when referring to the distinction between breeding, as a productive process, and racing as packaging, merchandising, and salesmanship. I&#8217;m not sure. Anyway, I drew the distinction because it seemed the appropriate way to apply Veblen&#8217;s analysis. Nevertheless, if it&#8217;s fair to say that racing has too much effect on the goods that are produced by the breeding industry, then it&#8217;s at least eqully fair to say that the breeding industry has too much to do with business, as you point out with respect to the effects of the direct commercial market.</p>
<p>As long as we&#8217;re going back to the time when aristocrats raced for &#8220;the sheer pleasure of seeing their runners perform,&#8221; let&#8217;s go back further to the time when breeding and racing were wrapped inseparably in a folk tradition sustained by yoeman farmers. I&#8217;d argue that the aristocratic period, from the late18th- through the 19th century, was a stage in the industrial organization of breeding and racing and that its main thrust was to appropriate that all but forgotten folk tradition to the business-industrial model. We call it an &#8220;aristocratic tradition,&#8221; but it couldn&#8217;t reproduce itself. It could only evolve with the broader economic environment. That process drove asunder the businesses of breeding and racing, resulting in, as you aptly put it, &#8220;the deeply insidious, fractured nature of the U.S. racing and breeding industries.&#8221; But that was Veblen&#8217;s point exactly. </p>
<p>I&#8217;d add that in the background of this post were my thoughts about a post Sid Fernando wrote at his website on the Suburban H., which was run at 9 furlongs this year instead of 10 furlongs. No doubt, immediate pressures conspired to make this happen, and no doubt there is blame enough to be divided between both sides of the industrial-business model for its long-term effects.</p>
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		<title>By: Roger Lyons</title>
		<link>http://werkhorse.com/pedigreematters/index.php/2010/07/13/finley-vs-veblen/comment-page-1/#comment-41</link>
		<dc:creator>Roger Lyons</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Jul 2010 19:44:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://werkhorse.com/pedigreematters/?p=303#comment-41</guid>
		<description>John, Thorstein Veblen couldn&#039;t have agreed with you more. He had no faith whatever in the games that were played by labor and management because they were both interested in only one thing in the final analysis--a piece of the action. Unlike the Marxists, who had a lot more traction in his time than in our time, he didn&#039;t think anything of value could arise out of that conflict. Only the engineers had a personal intellectual and passionate engagement in the productive process--the &quot;machine process&quot;--for its own sake. That&#039;s why Veblen foused instead on the broader conflict between industry and the banks--all in the interest of efficient production and adequate distribution of serviceable goods. It seems to me the time has come to give Veblen another hearing. And, by the way, I appreciated your comments in--was it the July 11 or 12? issue--of TDN because you dealt with the question in concrete terms of what it would mean to the engineers of this game, and I would invite readers to go to the TDN archive and review your comments in case they missed the piece you wrote.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John, Thorstein Veblen couldn&#8217;t have agreed with you more. He had no faith whatever in the games that were played by labor and management because they were both interested in only one thing in the final analysis&#8211;a piece of the action. Unlike the Marxists, who had a lot more traction in his time than in our time, he didn&#8217;t think anything of value could arise out of that conflict. Only the engineers had a personal intellectual and passionate engagement in the productive process&#8211;the &#8220;machine process&#8221;&#8211;for its own sake. That&#8217;s why Veblen foused instead on the broader conflict between industry and the banks&#8211;all in the interest of efficient production and adequate distribution of serviceable goods. It seems to me the time has come to give Veblen another hearing. And, by the way, I appreciated your comments in&#8211;was it the July 11 or 12? issue&#8211;of TDN because you dealt with the question in concrete terms of what it would mean to the engineers of this game, and I would invite readers to go to the TDN archive and review your comments in case they missed the piece you wrote.</p>
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		<title>By: Tinky</title>
		<link>http://werkhorse.com/pedigreematters/index.php/2010/07/13/finley-vs-veblen/comment-page-1/#comment-40</link>
		<dc:creator>Tinky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Jul 2010 14:50:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://werkhorse.com/pedigreematters/?p=303#comment-40</guid>
		<description>This is obviously a rather complicated topic, but I have a couple of thoughts and quibbles.

When (most) people refer to what you call the â€œsystem of racingâ€ as â€œthe productâ€, they are doing so because Thoroughbred racehorses would not exist â€“ at least not in their currently recognizable form â€“ were it not for that system. And within the context of that system, purse structures, how racing is presented, what forms of gambling are allowed, etc., are the key variables contributing to the overall success (or failure) of the industry. Long gone are the days when the aristocracy would race for the sheer pleasure of seeing their runners perform.

It is also a fact that people are most attracted to the highest quality in any sport. That can easily be deduced by looking the depth and quality of the players on teams that perform in well-run leagues (i.e. those which restrict the number of teams), or the amounts of money gambled on various events.

Thoroughbred racing in the U.S., for reasons that I donâ€™t need to review here, has chosen over the decades during which other sports developed far more successful and powerful leagues, to retain a model which is diluted to a degree that is otherwise unheard of. It would be as if the NBA decided to have 300 teams, with one good player on each team.

This has been a predictable recipe for disaster, and while there are other relevant variables to consider, it is no surprise that racing in Hong Kong, for example, attracts per-race levels of betting that dwarf that of racing in the U.S.

There is no doubt that a contraction of racing will impact the breeding industry, but, if handled properly (a BIG if, admittedly), it will also help to rejuvenate the industry. A higher concentration of quality horses competing for bigger purses in larger fields would go a long way to halting, and reversing the rapid decline of the sport.

As to the potential â€œsabotageâ€ of the breeding industry, I canâ€™t help but to react cynically. The U.S. breeding industry has, in large part, been responsible for its current (and any near-future) woes. For the past 25 years (or so) the selfish, short-sighted trend followed by most breeders has been to breed to sell, rather than breeding to race. So is it any surprise that the sport is now inundated with intrinsically unsound, often hot-tempered animals that rarely stay a step beyond nine furlongs?

Sadly, as further illustration of the deeply insidious, fractured nature of the U.S. racing and breeding industries, little thought is given to how the emphasis on breeding particular types of animals might impact the broader business in the longer term, nor is serious thought given to how eliminating â€œdistanceâ€ races and catering to cheap horses might be degrading the game.

Unfortunately, I could go on, and on, and onâ€¦</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is obviously a rather complicated topic, but I have a couple of thoughts and quibbles.</p>
<p>When (most) people refer to what you call the â€œsystem of racingâ€ as â€œthe productâ€, they are doing so because Thoroughbred racehorses would not exist â€“ at least not in their currently recognizable form â€“ were it not for that system. And within the context of that system, purse structures, how racing is presented, what forms of gambling are allowed, etc., are the key variables contributing to the overall success (or failure) of the industry. Long gone are the days when the aristocracy would race for the sheer pleasure of seeing their runners perform.</p>
<p>It is also a fact that people are most attracted to the highest quality in any sport. That can easily be deduced by looking the depth and quality of the players on teams that perform in well-run leagues (i.e. those which restrict the number of teams), or the amounts of money gambled on various events.</p>
<p>Thoroughbred racing in the U.S., for reasons that I donâ€™t need to review here, has chosen over the decades during which other sports developed far more successful and powerful leagues, to retain a model which is diluted to a degree that is otherwise unheard of. It would be as if the NBA decided to have 300 teams, with one good player on each team.</p>
<p>This has been a predictable recipe for disaster, and while there are other relevant variables to consider, it is no surprise that racing in Hong Kong, for example, attracts per-race levels of betting that dwarf that of racing in the U.S.</p>
<p>There is no doubt that a contraction of racing will impact the breeding industry, but, if handled properly (a BIG if, admittedly), it will also help to rejuvenate the industry. A higher concentration of quality horses competing for bigger purses in larger fields would go a long way to halting, and reversing the rapid decline of the sport.</p>
<p>As to the potential â€œsabotageâ€ of the breeding industry, I canâ€™t help but to react cynically. The U.S. breeding industry has, in large part, been responsible for its current (and any near-future) woes. For the past 25 years (or so) the selfish, short-sighted trend followed by most breeders has been to breed to sell, rather than breeding to race. So is it any surprise that the sport is now inundated with intrinsically unsound, often hot-tempered animals that rarely stay a step beyond nine furlongs?</p>
<p>Sadly, as further illustration of the deeply insidious, fractured nature of the U.S. racing and breeding industries, little thought is given to how the emphasis on breeding particular types of animals might impact the broader business in the longer term, nor is serious thought given to how eliminating â€œdistanceâ€ races and catering to cheap horses might be degrading the game.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, I could go on, and on, and onâ€¦</p>
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		<title>By: john greathouse</title>
		<link>http://werkhorse.com/pedigreematters/index.php/2010/07/13/finley-vs-veblen/comment-page-1/#comment-39</link>
		<dc:creator>john greathouse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Jul 2010 01:37:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://werkhorse.com/pedigreematters/?p=303#comment-39</guid>
		<description>As Slim Pickens said in Blazing Saddles
&quot;you got a tongue prettier than a two dollar whore&quot;
Realistically speaking Roger, the economies of the article says it all. The Bob Evans&#039; of this world see only their profit and not the wage earner or the worker bees. I never thought of myself as a Union person and still don&#039;t but the Bankers of this world (as Jefferson said) can&#039;t be trusted.
Well said</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As Slim Pickens said in Blazing Saddles<br />
&#8220;you got a tongue prettier than a two dollar whore&#8221;<br />
Realistically speaking Roger, the economies of the article says it all. The Bob Evans&#8217; of this world see only their profit and not the wage earner or the worker bees. I never thought of myself as a Union person and still don&#8217;t but the Bankers of this world (as Jefferson said) can&#8217;t be trusted.<br />
Well said</p>
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		<title>By: Tweets that mention Roger Lyons' Pedigree Matters Â» Finley vs. Veblen -- Topsy.com</title>
		<link>http://werkhorse.com/pedigreematters/index.php/2010/07/13/finley-vs-veblen/comment-page-1/#comment-38</link>
		<dc:creator>Tweets that mention Roger Lyons' Pedigree Matters Â» Finley vs. Veblen -- Topsy.com</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jul 2010 17:09:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://werkhorse.com/pedigreematters/?p=303#comment-38</guid>
		<description>[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by o_crunk, Sid Fernando + Obser and others. Sid Fernando + Obser said: Roger Lyons on Veblen, Finley, racing, and breeding http://bit.ly/bOx9kd A &quot;Best of Wire&quot; @r360wire [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by o_crunk, Sid Fernando + Obser and others. Sid Fernando + Obser said: Roger Lyons on Veblen, Finley, racing, and breeding <a href="http://bit.ly/bOx9kd" rel="nofollow">http://bit.ly/bOx9kd</a> A &quot;Best of Wire&quot; @r360wire [...]</p>
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